Vicious Bitter Victims
A response to volumes of hate mail and angry posts that began with a
discussion of something that occured on Oprah and was gradually
expanded upon through the posts of the lovely warm-hearted people who
frequent this board:
Ok… we have established that I am of the opinion that WLS is the
EASY way out in comparison to making and sticking with the lifestyle
changes necessary for a drastic, long lasting weightloss. AND we
have established that obesity is a CONDITION people perpetuate on
their own and not a disease that they are sticken with and have no
control over. That’s what I believe. I realize that there are a lot
of you who do not share my perspective which is fine, but I have to
say that I’m quite disappointed in this “SUPPORT” group. Rather than
recognizing and acknowledging different perspectives, a lot of you
feel compelled to viciously defend the position you take…The
position where you were not the least bit responsible for your own
state of being when you were severly obese but take full
responsibility for the weight you’ve lost with surgery. I can
appreciate different perspectives whether I agree with them or not.
It has been my experience that there are few absolutes in life…no
REAL right or wrong. Any two people can look at the exact same thing
or situation and see two totally different things, but that doesn’t
make either one of them wrong…it just means that they are looking
at it from different perspectives. It saddens me to think that there
are so many people out there who fail to realize that they are
responsible for their own states of being, good and BAD, skinny or
FAT, healthy or UNHEALTHY. It saddens me to know that so many of you
take the position that you were the victim of a disease called
obesity rather than accepting responsiblity and recognizing that
while you might have learned some bad behaviors, made some bad
choices, etc the bottom line is that you neglected to take care of
yourself and resorted to numbing your painful, pitiful life with food
which caused you to be morbidly obese.
Luckily, in the end…we all chose to do something about that by
resorting to WLS….good for us….We took control in the best way we
knew how and NOW we will no longer be victimized by that
awful “disease” because the weight is coming off and we want to take
responsibility for that.
February 27th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
I think it’s very sad to hear that you received hate mail for expressing
your opinion on this subject. I would have expected more from person who
have experienced their own prejudices throughout life. My opinion? I think
it’s a combination. I think it’s a condition and a disease. I think most
of us are predisposed genetically or environmentally to gain weight and we
prey on that predisposition with the choices we make for ourselves for
whatever reasons…stress, habit, pressure, etc. I think both sides of the
argument have merit. On the one hand, there are many thin people who are
thin ONLY because they eat healthy and exercise. On the other hand, there
are thin people who eat ten times the amount fat people do, don’t exercise
and never gain an ounce. Explain that as a condition only. Can’t can you?
If you can, I honestly would like to hear it. Metabolism? That gets into
the “disease” category. That’s why I believe it’s both.
Now, please apologies to those who were unkind to welladjustedfemale for
expressing her feelings. shame!
Lydia
February 27th, 2005 at 11:06 pm
I just read your post and am amazed that you could pass judgement when that
is precisely what you are angry about. I might be among the minority that is
aware that I am responsible for my obesity and that it was no one else’s
problem other than my own. I also am aware that genes play a role in
obesity. That is like saying that it is your fault you are a diabetic.
Hereditary diseases are vast among the overweight/obese people and I feel
that WLS has given us a TOOL. Just like eating healthy is a TOOL and
exercise is a TOOL. Not only does life hand us challenges that we may not
always overcome but it also has gifted us with judgemental people that chose
to pass judgement but then are offended when it comes their turn to be
judged. If I have offended you I apologize, I am simply stating my opinion.
Francine
February 28th, 2005 at 1:36 pm
Perhaps you should look at your tone instead of blaming others. Your posts seem
very defensive and offensive to many. Your right that we all have opinions, but
what you forget is that we need to be respectful of others oppions as well as
our own.
I accept responsibility for my obesity, but there are also factors that greatly
contributed to it. Two preterm pregnancys that resulted in my being stuck in bed
as well as no thyroid hormone in my body have also contributed to my problems. I
will be the first to admit that when I am stressed I do not pay attention to my
eating but when I was younger the only way for me to stay thin was to teach 4
aerobic classes a day. Metabolism and life circumstances account for some of the
problems that some of us have. My father weighs 400 lbs. Last year when my Uncle
Charter died at 650 lbs they actually had to cut a wall out of the house to get
him out.
Perhaps instead of being so vehemet that its all about overeating you should
realize that people don’t need to be bashed down any further in this group than
they already are. They have been bashed down for being fat for a long time and
it is unfair to assume that it all stems from the same source.
Right now my department at a major university are looking at genes that
predispose obesity. They have actually found these genes.
It is fine to express an opinion but remember that we need to respect others
opinions also. I recently went to a workshop where they asked several people in
my group what they saw in me. To my amazement they told me ” defensive”, “wall
around you so no one can get in”, etc. That series of workshops changed my life
by making me realize that I project how I feel and I felt defensive, ready to
pounce on everyone who said an unkind word.
Everyone has baggage, I think we just need to acknowledge others with
discounting thier feelings. Point in case ” I know how you feel but we all got
here because we ate to much” verses. I know how you feel and your opinion is
important.
Your opinion is important just try not to step on others opinions.
February 28th, 2005 at 10:00 pm
Dear Well Adjusted Female,
I am very sorry you received hate mail–that’s uncalled for, certainly.
Unfortunately, lists are not very private and there some poo-poo heads
lurking about. But I don’t know that every post you had which disagreed was
from someone who was/is a “vicious, bitter victim” just because they don’t
accept your take on all this.
You said:
“Ok… we have established that I am of the opinion that WLS is the
EASY way out in comparison to making and sticking with the lifestyle
changes necessary for a drastic, long lasting weightloss. AND we
have established that obesity is a CONDITION people perpetuate on
their own and not a disease that they are sticken with and have no
control over. That’s what I believe”
WE have not established that obesity is a condition, that is YOUR belief and
does carry connotations. Semantics is a word you used dismissively, but
language is a living thing, and semantics contribute to the nuances of
communication. Certainly, by your definition, folks need to feel responsible
for a heck of a lot. And by responsible, you seem to be saying, guilty.
Diabetes? Yep. Cancer? Oh yes, there are so many factors we could blame
ourselves for on that one. How about flu? Did I forget to wash my hands
thoroughly today and thus fall susceptible to a germ? Contributing factors do
not transform a disease into a “condition” for which we deserve to be
punished. There’s not a soul among us, of any shape or size, who has not done
something deleterious to his/her body or health.
Making lifestyle changes is inescapable, whether or not we have WLS to aid us
in our recovery from morbid obesity. Simply making those changes (i.e. diet
and exercise) has a 95% failure rate, so why hold them up as a standard for
“doing it right”?
You also said:
“Rather than
recognizing and acknowledging different perspectives, a lot of you
feel compelled to viciously defend the position you take…”
Yes, there will always be differing perspectives on any listserve. Some are
colored by people’s experiences, some by ignorance, some by misjudgement,
some by extensive research or esoteric knowledge of the subject. But I think
it’s important to remember that there are people just joining us, seeking
education and information, and some of us oldies feel a responsibility to
correct misinformation when it appears. Let’s face it, this is a sensitive
and painful subject.
And you said:
“The position where you were not the least bit responsible for your own
state of being when you were severly obese but take full
responsibility for the weight you’ve lost with surgery. I can
appreciate different perspectives whether I agree with them or not.”
I surely did not see anyone who portrayed themselves as helpless victims. Can
anyone say they never felt responsible for what they went through? Holy cow,
many of us made a science out of beating ourselves up over our weight. And I
think most of us who’ve been reading these postings for years would agree
that everyone credits their success to this tool and its correct usage. Are
you sure you appreciate different perspectives?
You went on to say:
“It saddens me to know that so many of you
take the position that you were the victim of a disease called
obesity rather than accepting responsiblity and recognizing that
while you might have learned some bad behaviors, made some bad
choices, etc the bottom line is that you neglected to take care of
yourself and resorted to numbing your painful, pitiful life with food
which caused you to be morbidly obese.”
I do not agree that you have accurately identifed the “bottom line” here.
There is strong, scientific research that indicates a pathology to
obesity–it’s based on a disease model. Where it begins, at what stage of
life it all starts, is as varied as the folks who live with it. Obesity can
begin early in life, at midlife, after severe trauma, after bodily injury or
illness, after emotional trauma, and so on. Too many stories to tell here!
BUT ONCE IT BEGINS, it develops a pathology, it alters the body’s chemistry,
the metabolism, hormones, and thus perpetuates. It becomes a disease.
Now, I don’t know where to start if I have to locate the beginning of my
obesity. I see genetic predisposition in one side of my family. I see a
general lack of energy in myself as a child–a preference for reading and
quiet play, as opposed to movement. I know that at 14, I was only about 15
pounds overweight, and embarked on my first “lifestyle change” (Atkins, which
made me very ill, and took 15 pounds off temporarily). I take responsibility
for the fact that I kept trying, over the years, even after I knew from
research that it was only making things worse. Heck, I was a great dieter.
I’d stick to my plan for literally YEARS–long after it stopped working. I
was too afraid to stop, since we all know what would happen next–regain plus
more weight than I started with.
I admire your desire to own up to what you’ve been through, but I ask you to
consider whether or not that is even the point here. If you need to be down
on yourself, I can’t approve of that. I just don’t see the point, when there
are too many people and forces in the world that can beat you up more
effectively! I’m not saying I should pat myself on the back and take credit
for “miraculous” weight loss. No way! I think I would like to thank myself
for having the courage to choose the best medical treatment, despite the fact
I’d never been hospitalized, and hated doctoring. I didn’t have a painful,
pitiful life, but it was definitely deteriorating because of my gradually
increasing weight. So I did what I thought was best, and it has helped.
Remember, too, that email can be ineffective at conveying a person’s true
“voice”. Not everyone writes they way they speak, and the messages can come
across as abrupt or harsh, whether or not the writer meant them to be. Yes,
this is a support group, but it’s also about information and encouragement.
If we gave unconditional support to every posting, we would pass on a lot of
things that just aren’t true, are discouraging to newcomers, or misleading to
those seeking ideas and information. Every now and then, someone (who shall
go nameless) from NAAFA pops in and tries to spread some, shall we say, “cow
manure”, and then we have to respond quickly so newcomers don’t think they
are reading facts.
Anyway, I hope you will realize that there are people who care about you
here, who know something about your journey, and who have compassion for you.
Even if they disagree.
HUGS!
Colleen in Ohio
March 1st, 2005 at 7:16 am
I didn’t see anyone that wasn’t taking responsibility for themselves. The
FACT of the matter is that obesity is a disease. No matter how much you want
to call it a condition. That doesn’t mean we don’t bear some responsibility.
A type II diabetic (diabetes is a disease) may control their sugar levels by
not eating sugar or other things and that puts them in control for the most
part but it does not lessen the fact that diabetes is a disease. the fact
that you choose to label those of us who disagree with your assessment of
obesity as a condition as vicious bitter victims seems to say more about how
well adjusted you are than it does about us. No one was attacking you that I
saw. But you seem to be attacking those of us who disagree with you. All of
the facts state that obesity is a disease. That does not mean we did not
have choices we could have made. And that also doesn’t mean that we who
think that are taking credit for our weight loss. I don’t. I give credit
where it goes — to the treatment — the surgery as well as my own work that
I put into it.
You talk about support and yet you are on here criticizing those of us who
disagree with you. You are attacking us. What is up with that? Well adjusted
female, the only one I have seen post that seems bitter is you.
Denise Rasley
March 1st, 2005 at 1:30 pm
Hmmmm, I must have missed something… I didn’t see any volumes of hate
Nope, I relatively positive that we didn’t “establish that obesity is a
mail and angry posts, but maybe those came to you privately.
Agreed - that it your opion - refuted as it was by others with research
and facts - but you are entitled to it.
CONDITION” - that part was YOUR opinion - refuted by evidence that it
has been classified as a disease, which you seem to be ignoring. So,
that evidence may not have changed your opinion - but don’t say that
it’s an established fact, just cause it’s YOUR opinion.
I don’t know, but it kinda seems that you’re not recognizing and
acknowledging different perspectives, either. And this response seems
kinda like vicious definding of your position.
What is your Subject “Vicious Bitter Victims” saying? - that everyone
who doesn’t agree with your opinion considers themselves a “victim”?
Well, nothing could be further from the truth. I don’t agree with you
in this, but I’m not Vicious, Bitter, or a Victim. But then I wouldn’t
consider myself a “victim” if I got ANY disease - cancer, diabetes,
hypertension - so why should I consider myself a victim because I got
this one? These things happen. Aside from the genes
It saddens me that a member of our own group would continue, in the face
of research and evidence, to continue the “it’s your own fault” chant.
And it especially saddens me that a member of our SUPPORT group - would
accuse other members of using food for “numbing your painful, pitiful
life”. Whose sounding vicious and bitter now? My life is not painful
or pitiful - and I don’t use food to numb it. I can admit that I could
have made better choices - but I don’t admit to being “victimized”. And
I agree that we all need to take responsibility for our health - if we
don’t, we won’t get the maximum benefit from this form of treatment that
we have chosen. I would hope that we can support each other through
this journey - regardless of our opinions about why we need to take it.
Pam
Pre-op 12/18/02